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Tim
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« Thread started on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 9:14pm »

What are your views on war?
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Evylyn Rose
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« Reply #1 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 2:22pm »

That's a pretty general question. I think it depends on a specific war: why it is happening, who it involves, what motivations the different sides have, what kind of warfare, etc., etc. Generally, I don't like wars. I don't much like violence for that matter.

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xx Re: War
« Reply #2 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 6:14pm »

Like EvylynRose said, it depends. As a means of conquering civilisations or expanding your territory, it could be considered wrong.
As a means of change for the good, it could be considered the right thing to do. Take Nazi Germany and WW2; that war, in my book, was an acceptable use of force on the part of the Allies. The Axis motivations, by contrast, were wrong.
So IMO it depends what the war is about, and even then what each side's motivation is.
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« Reply #3 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 7:33pm »

ok, so you think it's ok if the war is for good.

How do you feel about this quote:

Quote:
What is a war criminal? Was not war itself a crime against God and humanity, and, therefore, were not all those who sanctioned, engineered, and conducted wars, war criminals? War criminals are not confined to the Axis Powers alone. Roosevelt and Churchill are no less war criminals than Hitler and Mussolini. England, America and Russia have all of them got their hands dyed more or less red - not merely Germany and Japan.
-Gandhi

Why do you think Gandhi would say that?
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« Reply #4 on: Oct 10th, 2003, 4:45pm »

I full heartily believe what Ghandi said. No side is innocent in a war, for all do their damage. However, there are times when people may have to get their hands dirty for the good. Of course as little force as necessary should be used. Many wars have been fought for good reasons, but the force that was used far exceeded what would have been necessary to come to the same results.
I don't like to say that one side's action is right or wrong, simply good or bad. What one side thinks they should do will seem right to them, but it may be in essence bad. The Nazis were doing what they thought was right, even though it seemed so wrong to everyone else. It seemed wrong because it was bad, but to those doing it, it was the right thing to do. And it can work the other way around where one's actions may seem wrong, but in essence are good.

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« Reply #5 on: Oct 10th, 2003, 10:14pm »

Regarding Hitler, I don't hink we can rightly discuss that, because we don't know the real motive of his actions. Killing jews because he hated them was something that was a manifest of his real motive.
If we can't talk to him and try to find this essential want, then we can't really discuss how the Nazi situation could have been transformed. If you know what it was, please let us know.
It is my understanding that all conflicts can be transformed without violence, but sometimes it is extremely hard, and seemingly impossible.

So what one side thinks of the other side may be bad, but the real drive of the 'enemy' may not be what the other side thinks. I think that having a war over Hitler's domination and killing is a false conflict, because it isn't getting to the heart of the whole ordeal.

What do you think of this point of view?
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« Reply #6 on: Oct 11th, 2003, 3:58pm »

If Hitler had any motive in which we don't know about, the Nazi's didn't know it either. The Nazi goal was to create a perfect race. That is why not only Jews, but homosexuals, and many others were killed. They wanted a race of straight, blonde hair, blue eyes. They even had posters of what the perfect skull shapes were. If your head wasn't shaped like one of the ones they wanted, you had better be careful. Many speak only of the Jews because they were the most targetted(I would think because many Jews did not seem to fit the physical characteristics in which they were looking for, among a few other reasons). I don't doubt that Hitler had other motives, simply that with the discussion in which the Nazi were mentioned as an example, any hidden agenda is of no importance. We know enough to know that what the Nazis were doing, they thought of as being right. Many did not like what they were doing to achieve the goal, but the goal itself was right to them. (I'd get into more detail, but it's been awhile since I took a psychology class.)
What Hitler had the Nazis do was not rightious in any way. Unless the death of so many was going to save the universe, I doubt he could come up with a good excuse. If they really did not want these people to be a part of their empire, they had many alternatives. They could have moved them out of the empire. There could have been peace talks with countries in hopes that they would take these people in. In this particular case, we don't need to look into any true motive, we need to look at what was done and for what purpose. The purpose of killing so many innocent people was to create a perfect race, as we've already found. There were other options that could have been chosen that would not let Hitler seem like he was playing some sort of Supreme Being.
Hmm... I keep going in ciricles. What I'm trying to say is, regardless of what the Nazis were trying to do, they thought that what they were doing was right, however, their actions were immoral, unjust, and, for lack of a better word, bad.

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« Reply #7 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 05:20am »

Well, as you say they were trying to make a 'perfect race'. Which is ok, but their conception of 'perfect' was obviously quite distorted.
However I still don't think that we have found their true motive, and it is important, because the true motive isn't wrong, the way the motive is put into action may be wrong. If we know the true motive of both sides, then we know how the conflict could have been transformed.
You can only transform a conflict between 2 true motives, not external or manifested ones, it doesn't work, it becomes a 'dilema'. And dilemas can't be tranformed, only 'solved'(and I dislike that word very much).
Anyway, so the perfect race ting wasn't their true motive, because they didn't know what perfect was. Unless someone can enlighten us I don't think we can discuss WW2.

What do you think again?
(To discuss a more recent conflict which we can actually discuss, I made a new thread)
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« Reply #8 on: Oct 12th, 2003, 3:25pm »

The only motives of the Nazis was to create a perfect race(which to them was perfect, although to others it may not seem so), and to stretch out their empire with hopes of domination(which is the hope of all empires, otherwise they wouldn't be called empires). Any other motives which you claim we do not know would be Hitler's alone(unless each Nazi had their own individual motive, but not as a whole). We are discussing the Nazis. We only need their motives to discuss them. And how would anyone learn any of the motives that we've already learned of had they not been disussed? It is through research and the interpretation of that research(usually found by discussion) that we learn any facts. Not to sound mean, but go to a library in your area and pick up some history books. You'd be amazed by the evidence that has already been found that supports the theories and facts that we have about World War II. We're not such bigots that we just say something because someone thought it up.
As you said, even if we have not found their true motive, it may not have been wrong, however what motives we have found have proven themselves not to be the human conception of right. But since we do not know of any "true motives" which may or may not have been there, we can't discuss the "true motive" because we don't know it. We can discuss what we do know, and that is exactly what I have been doing.

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« Reply #9 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 02:56am »

hmm, well we are discussing something different then. War as I think I said before is not a true conflict. You cannot transform war, because it's drive isn't righteous.
What I'm saying is, that if you or I were to have a dialogue with Hitler, assuming that he would be willing, to find out his real inner drive and motive with his campaign, then it is possible that we can find a transformation of this and the other side.
I agree with you when you say the Nazi campaign and war waging has no transformable motive.
What do you think?

If you want to see conflict transformation discussion then post in the Israel - Palestine thread
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« Reply #10 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 06:31am »

I believe that with men like Adolf Hitler there is a certain degree of irrationality involved. If anyone has seen the obscure footage of Hitler rocking in his seat at the Berlin Olympic Games, you will know what I mean.
The man was, quite clearly, mentally disturbed, and if history is anything to judge by, delluded in a serious way. The "perfect" race, as described in TEXT, as a justification for the extermination of the Jews is far too 'practical' a reason for a man like Hitler. I think that the true reason behind the occurance of the holocaust was that Hitler was jealous of the success enjoyed by many of the Jewish population. The same thing can be seen in medieval Europe, where many Jews became very affluent as money lenders (because that was just about all the law allowed them to be). Many were bashed in the street and even executed simply because their race was so successfal at business. People figured, somewhat illogically, that the entire Jewish populus were a bunch of cheats.
Hitler would not have had any "perfect race" plan. That was merely an excuse for the mass slaughters under the pretence that his actions were bettering Germany, rather than being for his own sick personal prejudice
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« Reply #11 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:24am »

Sorry, the bold text is meant to say "Mein Kampf", not TEXT.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:25am »

A big claim Torrich.
But anyways, I don't think Hitler was a complete nut. Eventhough yes, he did have some pretty repugnant ideals, a nut couldn't simply get into power and start trying to wipe out a race because he didn't like thier money...
There had to be something genuine that he was trying to achieve. The 'perfect race' business, I agree wan't his true cause. But I don't think his true cause was just killing the jews because he didn't like them, he was also campaigning for invading land and was against other races.

Perhaps if we read Mein Kumf we could get some more insight. I might as well some day.
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« Reply #13 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:34am »

Oh, come on! Hitler had to be either insane or a fool to challenge the British and the Americans, even with the support of the Japanese and the Italians, and we know he was no fool, but a shrewd, if radical, politician.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #14 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:46am »

Well he did very well didn't he, for a while.
We need more info methinks. We should read Mein Kampf...
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