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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: War  (Read 4621 times)
torrich
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« Reply #15 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:48am »

It would be an insight rare to many into the mind of a man who the modern world regards as the most brutal maniac history has seen.
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:57am »

Funnily, we would have to read to know if it is benefitial to read about.
I think I should, after my current read.
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 07:59am »

I might start it. We could start a "Mein Kampf" thread. Posts: 2 torrich and tim wink
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 13th, 2003, 08:04am »

myes if anyone starts reading it.
« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2003, 08:04am by Tim » User IP Logged

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« Reply #19 on: Oct 14th, 2003, 07:13am »

You quoted Ghandi earlier:

"Churchill and Roosevelt are no less war criminals than Hitler and Mussolini."

As much as I admire Ghandi and his ideals, I think that Churchill and Roosevelt did what was necessary in the defence of their respective countries.
It is true that Churchhill was a hard, often arrogant, man, but it was under him that the peoples of Britain united to drive away the Nazi threat. After all, it was not violence alone that beat Nazi Germany, but the union and tenacious determination of ordinary British men and women, doing whatever it took, working as long as 18 hours a day.
As an brilliantly inspiring orator, Churchill gave hope to the inhabitants of the bomb-shattered cities of England. The Luftwaffe fire-bombed London, with devestatingly deadly and destructive power, as well as bombarding the Capital with the infamous V-2 rockets. If Britain had not gone to war with Hitler's fanatically Nazi Germany, invaision would most certainly occurred.
In a situation like that, how is non-violence alone to beat a ruthlessly determined enemy? The Germans had the will and power to beat Britain. Without the sheer stubbornness of the Brits, not even the Americans could have saved Old England from Nazi Occupation. The previous Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlin, was a peace-loving man. But he made the situation worse by using non-violence, trusting Hitler and in effect giving the tyrant Czekloslovakia to add to his Empire. Hitler was clearly not a man to be negotiated with, and any non-violence would have been ineffective.

Hitler and Mussolini ruthlessly killed MILLIONS of innocent civillians, most of them their OWN PEOPLE! If anything justifies the term 'war criminal' it is this.

Churchill merely acted as the inspirational figurehead of his people.
Roosevelt held out from the war as long as he could. He knew what happened in wars like this. He knew of the tremendous waste of cheapened human life. It was only after a totally unprovoked act of war by the Japanese (as you know, allies with the Germans) at the Battle of Pearl Habour in 1942 that the American people demanded war be declared. And why should they be blamed for their demands? The Japanese took the lives of hundreds of people in peacetime, not to mention hundreds of millions of dollars worth of shipping, just under a third of the American fleet, I believe.
Also, the extermination of the Jews had to be stopped. It would be tantamount to criminal negligence for a powerful nation to sit idly by and allow the cold blooded murder of countless millions.

With all due respect to Ghandi, I think it was wrong for him to incriminate the actions of Churchill, Roosevelt and their countries. His situation when trying to persuade the British to withdraw from India was totally different. Their was no unprovoked extermination of the Indians. It is true that there were two horrible massacres, but the officers who ordered the firing into dense crowds of people were court-martialed, stripped of all rank and, I believe, imprisoned for a considerable duration.
Ghandi was able to use non-violence because the British were rational. Their Imperial possession would be of no use to them if the people were staunchly against their occupation, and anyway, the Indian Mutiny was evidence of what could happen if the Indians werew suppressed.

I believe that the actions of Winston Churchill and Theodore Roosecelt were perfectly justified. Hitler was very irrational, and possibly metally insane.

There was simply no alternative to the declaration of war on the part of Britain and the USA.
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W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #20 on: Oct 15th, 2003, 06:05am »

I find it distrurbing that you attack Gandhi and non-violence without actually knowing what non-violence is.

In a global society where countries work together to ease conflicts between countries or inside countries, there is no need for war. In a society where people look past materialsim and go straight to the heart in solving problems, then people won't stand for the killing of jews(as like todays society).
Working toward this through dialogue, action, forums(real forums), workshopd etc is what non-violence is about. Non-violence isn't just about walking up to men with batons and being beaten down or something like that.
What Gandhi was trying to exemplify is that War doesn't solve the problem. Look at our world today, the same sort of thing is still going on and we haven't found a logical way of dealing with our problems.

This is where conflict transcendance and transformation comes in. We have to do this more(in the forum) to understand non-violence.
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« Reply #21 on: Oct 15th, 2003, 07:11am »

But in a situation like WW2, how could this have been done?

And I do not attack non-violence or Ghandi. I merely said that non-violence would have been innappropriate, indeed was proved inappropriate by Chamberlain, and that Ghandi's comparison was inncorrect.

Just because Ghandi said something, it doesn't mean it is right.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #22 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 02:06am »

Quote:
Just because Ghandi said something, it doesn't mean it is right.

The nature of Gandhi's quote was to express that the power of non-violence was so profound that any violent action, is a crime against the brotherhood of humanity.

I cannot answer your question at this time, because I don't know enough about Hitler. When I read Mein Kampf I may be able to answer your question.

But to discuss how to transfrm conflicts we can do so in current situations in other threads. smiley
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« Reply #23 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 04:35am »

Gandhi's methods of non-violence were employed by Neville Chamberlain and failed hopelessly. He (Hitler) was an irrevocable madman, there is no possible way you could quell his hatred for other races.
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« Reply #24 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 04:57am »

*sigh*
Neville Chamberland tried to do the right thing, but unfortunately didn't, and made the situation worse.
What Chamberland didn't get to was what exactly Germany wanted. He believed that they were mistreated by the Allies after the first world war, and let them have their way on a couple things, but he assumed wrong and didn't really solve any conflicts, but infact let Hitler have more power.
Chamberland's intentions were noble, but he didn't quite understand what he was trying to do I think.

What we are trying to establish here is that conflict cannot be resolved through war. We can only decide on how the WW2 could have been avoided through non-violent means, by finding the intentions and goals of both sides more importantly Hitler.

I won't stand for 'Hitler was a madman' because he wasn't completely balistic if he got into power, he definately had a goal and reading Mein Kampf will hopefully enlighten me and us.

Thoughts again?
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« Reply #25 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 05:09am »

Being a madman doesn't mean you don't have a goal...it's just your goal might happen to be twisted, sick or perverted (or a myriad of other words) and any combination of the 3. How could you say that his "Final Solution" couldn't make him a madman? If George Bush, tomorrow on the 7 o'clock morning news stated that every black person in the world should be ruthlessly exterminated, would that make him a madman? HELL YES! (btw, I am not racist). That is technically what Hitler did so why is he not a madman?
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« Reply #26 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 05:28am »

What I was trying to establish was that, yes, he did have a sick and twisted way of viewing things, but at heart he had a goal that wasn't wrong, and what he was ultimantely trying to achieve.
He may be mad as you say but even mad people have a goal like this if they are striving for something.
I don't think we can deny even the mentally disturbed of this innate humanistic sense.
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« Reply #27 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 05:32am »

That is true, he wanted the best of conditions for Germany during the Third Reich...just at the expense of other races, particularly the Jews and Slavs...
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« Reply #28 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 05:34am »

myes, I definately need to read Mein Kampf! smiley
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« Reply #29 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 05:59am »

"Even Hitler's most loyal followers found Mein Kampf - a lengthy jumble of egotistical rantings and half baked racial theories - difficult to read"...if you wish...
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