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 veryhotthread  Author  Topic: War  (Read 4625 times)
Tim
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xx Re: War
« Reply #30 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 06:05am »

well yes, but I want to read it to understand him more, not really for a good read.
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xx Re: War
« Reply #31 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 4:12pm »

In my opinion, Hitler was a bit on the not-so-sane side when he wrote Mein Kampf. Afterwards, once he attained a status of power, he had a personal physician experient on him in order to find a cure for a disease he was suffering from(I'm very sorry, I can't remember what it was). Obviously such testing would affect his health even futher, and surely would mess with his mind from time to time(which may explain the rocking back and forth). Not to say he wouldn't have seemed just as "crazy" without such testing being done on his body, but I think this may have had a strong impact on the situation. Perhaps this piece of vital information may help to find some cause to his "madness."
I had a uncle of some sort(my great-grandmother's uncle, I believe) who was not only Slavick(as most of my mother's side of the family was), but also Jewish. While my greatgrandmother and her family were sitting down for dinner(I'm not sure what the event was, but it was like a Thanksgiving-type of family gathering), Nazi soldiers showed up, took him out front, told him to hold his son, and shot them to death. This story will always be in my family, just as many stories like it will be in other people's families. It is because of this we don't give up trying to find answers. 10,000 years from now, I'm sure we'll still be trying to answer the question of why someone would do such a thing. What was Hitler's "true motivation"? How could he do such a thing? Was he ill-minded?
Sorry for the little rant. I'm just trying to answer an earlier question.

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« Reply #32 on: Oct 16th, 2003, 10:49pm »

That's shocking! Shooting someone out the front of a their family's home during a festive dinner.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #33 on: Oct 17th, 2003, 02:34am »

Yes, it is devatstating, but I think it's very important and benefitial for stories like that to be told and passed on. I've made this quote, oh so many times before, but:

"History is a mirror, to see what we are, and to see what can be improved."
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« Reply #34 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 5:21pm »

Heh, my computer's been dead for a while, and this one's slow, so I won't be back often. But I wasn't ignoring your question earlier, or running away, and I wasn't just a 'one post wonder' either grin Just give me some time to raise cash for a new CPU and I'll be a frequent visitor once more.

Anyway.
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Regarding Hitler, I don't hink we can rightly discuss that, because we don't know the real motive of his actions. Killing jews because he hated them was something that was a manifest of his real motive.


We don't need to know his motives. We don't need to know his hidden agendas. We don't need to know whether or not he was of sound mind, whether he wanted a perfect race or not, what his favourite colour is or whether he likes Pepsi or Coca Cola. All we need to know is what he did. First off, he began invading neighbouring states. Not only was this against the Treaty of Versailles, and therefore could be interepreted to be a deliberate provocation to the states who forced them to sign the treaty, but it was totally unprovoked.
Then we have the war crimes, all of which were ordered by Hitler, if specific crimes were done so indirectly. Six billion Jews alone were slaughtered. I'm not sure of the figures regarding his other targets, such as blacks, gypsies, homosexuals, etc.

Lets look at this objectively - decide what's moral and immoral, right and wrong, with these facts. Under Hitler, Germany made unprovoked and successful attacks on such countries as Poland and Austria. They breached the terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which German leaders signed in good faith to end conflict and prevent occupation of Germany: they did so by building up armies, manufacturing planes and tanks, entering restricted areas such as the Rhineland, and God-knows what else. And they either made negotiations impossible by evading questions and demands, making impossible demands of their own, or ignoring them completely. They made every step to ensure they started a war which was illegal, immoral and unstoppable through peaceful means.
The Allies, on the other hand, went to war to stop this. Had they not gone to war to stop this, the German army would have continued to rampage Europe and beyond, slaugher those who didn't fit whatever profile Hitler had laid out, until eventually they pretty much controlled the world, either by direct occupation, alliance, or informal empire. Which decision do you think would have been 'right' in this scenario, the Allies ignoring this and allowing it to happen, all the while trying to use peaceful means which German officials were probably laughing at and seeing as a weakness, or taking their full strength to forcefully stop the German army before it fulfilled its planetary potential?

As for Ghandi, his ideals at this time could not work on Earth. Humans are too greedy, too trigger-happy, for his non-violence theories to work. They won't work now, they wouldn't have worked against Hitler. In fact, Ghandi's own methods only worked because of Britain's weakened condition after two wars. For some people, violence is the only way. People in the streets find non-violence amusing, seeing it as a weakness. States and terrorist organisations think of non-violence to be ineffective compared to violence in achieving goals.
That's not to say I disagree. I think it should be worked at. I don't think it could never work, I just think social evolution needs a little more time for it to be accepted.

As an afterthought, bear this in mind: many technologies now used for peaceful, household means have been either invented or come into being as accidental by-products of technologies created specifically for war. Granted, in capitalist society maybe war isn't needed; companies compete peacefully with each other to create something new to gain a bigger market share. But if war was removed from society, do you think our technology would continue to advance as fast?

And don't laugh at me on this one (apart from anything, this is a forum of ideas, is it not?), but what if a hostile alien force comes along and we have declared world peace, disbanded our armies and have only a few emergency, age-old weapons for dealing with the odd nutty criminal? I think there was a Simpsons episode that showed how that could turn out. I think it's safe to say that it's a possibility, no matter how far-fetched.
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« Reply #35 on: Nov 10th, 2003, 02:30am »

Hm...War. Is it ever justified? I'd have to say only in defense of people it is. Nothing pre-emptive. And that still leaves plenty of times fighting a war can be justified. For example, Columbian drug problems and a war to drug smugglers from selling their product on the streets of your country. It causing harm to the members of X nation. WW2? Fighting in it was a defensive action as Germany/Japan were taking over countries. Dropping nuclear weapons on Japan to end it however? Thats debatable.

Touching on the Hitler subject..don't say because someone suffers from some sort of mental illness they couldn't come to power. And you can't just say the Nazi motive was _______. It was a political party, and the members all had different opinions on matters espically the perfect race concept.

I will agree with Gandhi, but not for Gandhi's reasons. The relocation camps while not as horrible as the Nazi concentration camps were just as morally wrong. In the end they did destroy the lives on many of those imprisoned, their jobs were lost to them and if they owned a business it collapsed. Russia destroyed half of its country in WW2 stopping the Germans. I'm sure there are rarely heard horror stories about English troops.

Hitler was a genius but he still made mistakes. Had he had the Japense wait to attack America he would have likely won. Had he waited to attack Russia he probably would have won. Was in insane? If you can call faulting an entire race for the mistakes of a few then yes he was insane. Hitler hated Jews for a LOT of reasons. He blamed the economy on them and he blamed those that defeated Germany in WWI also. If I remember my history right, his mother died under the care of a Jewish doctor and he always blamed the man for his mothers death. It was more about being able to point the finger at someone and blaming them. Hitlers thinking isnt that uncommon, history is full of one people blaming others for something that really isnt their fault (won't even begin to go into that here). WW2 was pretty much inevitable due to the results of WW1. It didnt have to be as horrific as it was, but it was anyways.

So...what about the other wars? Was Vietnam justifyable? Korea? What about something current like Iraq or Afhganastan?

P.S. We had to read Mein Kampf for my Philosophy 101 class. It was interesting...if you like looking into the mind of someone whos hateful and full of vengence. In Hitler's eyes he felt that he was fighting against people that had oppressed Germany. To a certain point, he was right. Grain of truth in any lie makes it go a lot farther and easier to believe. Some good things did come from WW2 however...
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« Reply #36 on: Nov 23rd, 2003, 7:23pm »

So what good did come of WW2? Advances in aviation?
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W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #37 on: Nov 29th, 2003, 02:18am »

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And they either made negotiations impossible by evading questions and demands, making impossible demands of their own, or ignoring them completely. They made every step to ensure they started a war which was illegal, immoral and unstoppable through peaceful means.

Well, I agree that of course Hitlers actions were immoral. But realistically Hitler wouldn't have gained power and gone on to war if Germany and its people weren't in such a cr*p state after the war.
We have to relaise that Germnay was raped and neglected after the 1st world war. Although you may think that it was justified because of their actions in the war, I certainly don't think that the German people deserved to be neglected so, which really was the cause of Hitlers actions.
There was no paradigm of global equality and so countries suffered. As a result this suffering spread in the form of hatred-filled war. It wasn't only Germany's fault, it was the world's insecurity.

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As for Ghandi, his ideals at this time could not work on Earth

Ah, Gandhi was alive during this time. But non-violence isn't just about going out and getting yorself bashed to exemplify the hatred that is inside the aggressor. This is a common mis-conception. Dialogue, different types of protest, non-co-operation(strickes etc) are all non-violence, and there are others.
Recently as you might know; Georgia was liberated by their conservative, oppresive and almost communist president or Prime Minister. The Georgian people simply didn't co-operate, striking for days and days on end. The Prime Minister eventually stepped down, realising that they didn't want him, and that he couldn't do anything about it.
If the Georgian people were to use violence, that would be an excuse for him to do whatever he wanted, but they didn't. I'm just going to sincerely and strongly commend the Georgian people for their strength and courage.

Quote:
but what if a hostile alien force comes along and we have declared world peace, disbanded our armies and have only a few emergency, age-old weapons for dealing with the odd nutty criminal? I think there was a Simpsons episode that showed how that could turn out. I think it's safe to say that it's a possibility, no matter how far-fetched.

There isn't a answer to this because it depends.

Indeed, techonology did develop well during the war, but whether that is good or not in many respects is debatable.
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« Reply #38 on: Dec 12th, 2003, 7:31pm »

In the context of my far-fetched alien suggestion, it's very important.
I know you want to believe that every person is capable of good if you push hard enough, but there are violently insane people out there who simply won't listen to reason - unless you can capture them, strap them down and treat their condition. And someone like Hitler, insane or not, who is intelligent, could worm their way into a position of power and use that power for violence. If your military isn't developed, said insane person could very well win, and begin using the population of your own country for, I don't know, executions or what-not. Safe to say that non-violence against someone who only understands violence can only lead to more bloodshed than retaliation would. As in the case of Hitler.

I'm perfectly well aware of what non-violence entails. And it wouldn't work in that way for solving wars. Reasoned negotiations, discussions and treaties could avert most wars, but as Hitler was already waging wars (illegal ones at that, and don't say that all wars are immoral and therefore illegal, I mean it's lucky he wasn't attacked instantly for that very reason) it seemed unlikely that any amount of negotiations would prevent a war that he had already set in motion.
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« Reply #39 on: Dec 16th, 2003, 01:01am »

As I already said, Hitler could not come to power without his people.

People are the foundation of a nation. If the people want it they can essentially get anything they want. The case of Germany was typical because the living conditions and everything basically was appaling and horrible. The people needed something to bring them back up.
It is true that many nations were exploiting other countries for their own wealth, Germany included, and Germany wanted some of this.

IF the world had supported Germany, then there would be no need for this extremism to reign. Much like in our countries.

This is what happens in war. revenge and hatred fuels, and they try to punish the past aggressing nation. Not realising that this hatred is actually fueling 'karma' against themselves.

Its a vicious cycle
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« Reply #40 on: Dec 17th, 2003, 6:16pm »

It's all very well and good informing people how you can stop a war before it's started using hindsight. It's perfectly true that had post-war Germany been supported rather than blamed (even though it wasn't their fault at all, they were the third power to take political action in WW1) for the war, Hitler would never have swung public opinion in his favour. Y'all know his anti-Allies propaganda campaign, amongst others.
But when the war's already started, it's too late for that. You can't go back in time, and at that point in the present they had no choice but to fight. That 'peace on the world' and 'harmony stuff' you seem shocked doesn't exist yet, is what lots of people would want, myself included to some degree. But it's not going to happen for a long time, unfortunately. People in politics are generally ruthless rather than nicey-nice. Otherwise it's hard to make it to a position where you can run for leader.
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« Reply #41 on: Dec 18th, 2003, 01:32am »

Of course I know that I can't go back in time.
History is a mirror; to see what we are and to see what can be improved.
Thus, humanity must eventually learn from this. Instead of constantly repeating war. This is my point.

I know that its not going to happen is an instant. I never said that, how could you expect me to believe that?
But I hold these ideals strongly and will never succumb to hate and violence.
IF people believe in this then politics will be forced to enforce it. Thats what I'm more concerned about.
Nevertheless I was actually considering politics(still am a bit).
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« Reply #42 on: Dec 22nd, 2003, 10:17pm »

WW2 was indirectly started by WW1. The Allies had taken everything they could from Germany and itg was financially ruined. People needed someone new and radical to pull them out of tough times. Hitler, who waqs then, I believe, PM, seemed the obvious alternative to Chancellor Hindenburg, who was conservative and ineffective. So it was not the German peoples' fault Hitler came to power, but the unthinking, vindictive actions of the allies after the signing of the Armistice.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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« Reply #43 on: Dec 23rd, 2003, 12:44am »

I agree to that. Thats why war is so stupid.

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I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is only temporary, the evil it does is permanent
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« Reply #44 on: Dec 28th, 2003, 8:07pm »

Here, here!
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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