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xx Re: Israel - Palestine
« Reply #15 on: Oct 17th, 2003, 06:48am »

Quite frankly, I don't think that there is a way to please both sides entirely.
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« Reply #16 on: Oct 17th, 2003, 07:02am »

of course there is! We just need to get an idea and 'perfect' it.

ok, look here's one. Israel and Palestine join into a network of several states. The states can be accessed from anyone in any state, so they can go to the religious cities, and they also have the nationalism.

Obviously what may be a point of concern with this is that people will be angry and vengeful against the 'jews' or the 'palestinians'.
So the system must make sure that communities work 'inter-religiously' to solve some problems or help people in need for the growing province or state.
Forums, workshops, activities like this that focus on current problems in the state, and working together to reform, are the building blocks for multiculturalism there.
Children must go to camps together with Jews or Palestinians and work together, learning about multiculturalism and set the future for brightness.

Now, this isn't perfect I suppose, so we need to discuss it. This isn't nexissarilly going to be "the solution" or "the transformation" it's just one idea.

And I know it's a big change, but if we have no other choice....
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« Reply #17 on: Oct 27th, 2003, 12:25am »

The inherent hatred passed on from parents to chidren would take several generations to remove.
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« Reply #18 on: Oct 28th, 2003, 6:04pm »

I think the Palestinians don't just want to steal the land from Israel. I wrote an essay on this subject a couple of years ago as part of my coursework. Took a couple of attempts to get an A, and even now I'm not entirely clear, lol. I think the Palestinians feel that Israel was stolen from them, and though my knowledge on the subject is hazy, I think they were right. In short, I believe it happened like this: The Palestinians had been living where Israel now stands for centuries, if not millenia. Britain occupied most of the Middle East as a path to their Indian territories for a time. WW2 happened. Combined with pressure from Jewish communities inside and outside the area in question, and sympathy for the persecution of the Jews in WW2, Britain pretty much kicked the Palestinians out and gave the place to the Jews, their own land. Now the Palestinians, as they were then, are pretty miffed, and want it back. Understandably, really.

There will be no easy answer. And if the current trend continues (US stops the fighting, the guys sit around a table for a bit under US watch, then have arguments, then start fighting again, then US stops the fighting, etc...), the war could go on until the Earth is destroyed, or hippies take control and unite all under their loving watch, whichever comes first. It's similar to the Northern Ireland dispute in many ways, although a lot more violent. Both parties want radically different things, and neither is willing to make many concessions.
I have only one idea, though it's a rather harsh one. Israeli and Palestinian leaders keep running for help from the superpowers. Israel gets much of its finance for their military activities from the superpowers. Both parties get most of their weapons and equipment from the superpowers. End this assistance. Stop 'molly-coddling' them. If anything, Israel will end up in a vulnerable position and be forced into making concessions - lest we forget the enemies in neighbouring Arab countries they have to deal with as well. Without outside support, they won't be able to stick to their guns so readily.
To be honest, I can't see any peace proposals being drawn up that will satisfy both parties. I say, if the superpowers have managed to mostly work out their differences (Europe especially, if you look at its history), anyone can. In fact, it's probably best they work it out on their own. It'll add to their cultural and political evolution, give them an experience to draw on in the future. No war they have over there can match some of the ones we've had over here, and we've turned out alright. I'm an avid supporter of non-interference; it adds to cultural diversity if everyone figures things out on their own.

Although I suppose somehow a Western power, or indeed, any power, thought of a way of solving the problem peacefully, I would support it. Maybe that everyday life phenomenon applies here: you won't find what you're looking for till you stop looking. Can't see it ending in my lifetime, though.
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« Reply #19 on: Nov 29th, 2003, 01:48am »

No superpowers are currently funding Israel and/or Pallestinian weaponary. They did, but not anymore.
So cutting the funding has already taken place.
Letting them have war, with no funding obviously han't worked in the past decades. And of course in the past centuries.

So, maybe we have to think of support from maybe the rest of the Middle East(I know sounds impossible and stupid), or maybe we do have to resort to the UN mediating, with an agreed plan between the MEern countries?

Indeed, I fear that something bad will have to happen before the countries realise that this whole mess is only going to end if the countries and perhaps some of the rest of the world work together. But not necisarrily waiting for somethin bad.
I'm not talking about simply the UN going in and making a ceasefire, but rather some sort of enormous workshop which can conclude to a sitable plan, and then manifest appropriately.

What do you think? What do you think should be discussed?

(steep questions I know)
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« Reply #20 on: Nov 29th, 2003, 7:18pm »

Israel is not making weapons, at least, not as many as they have got. Be it ex-USSR states, the US, France, UK, Russia herself, China or anyone, someone is funding them. I think that rich American Jews are doing something to help them, at least.

As for the rest of the Middle-East helping, bar Iraq and their suggestive US-supporting government that would be another similar challenge in itself. The rest of Middle-East hates Israel about as much as the Palestinians do! In their current states, at least in the minds of those who follow them, the two main religions involved are incompatible. That is another factor, after all, religious wars. And as Britain currently has her own crisis in Northern Ireland between to religions that are, compared to Islam v Judaism, quite similar, it seems unlikely that a solution to that problem will be found in even the distant future.

I just don't think that it's possible in our lifetimes, probably not for generations. Which is another reason why I think we should simply pull out, leave them to it. There will be bloodshed whether we help them or not, and I'd rather see them come to their own solutions than have the US-UK colalition systematically take over every Muslim state in the area, or force them into a treaty that is too Westernised to work for very long. Every culture must evolve their own system, as Europe and the various ex-Euro-colonies have done.
Granted, we've already interfered by creating Israel in the first place, but still, they should tailor their own solution in their own time. And before anyone even thinks of saying 'well without us, they'll just be at war for ages and people will die', I would like to again redirect your attention to Northern Ireland, where there is still unrest in our so-called perfect Western society.
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« Reply #21 on: Nov 29th, 2003, 11:03pm »

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Israel is not making weapons, at least, not as many as they have got. Be it ex-USSR states, the US, France, UK, Russia herself, China or anyone, someone is funding them. I think that rich American Jews are doing something to help them, at least.

Honestly, no country can be sick enough to fund that. They were heavily funded by the US I think it was in the past to take out Egypt. But the US would not be funding it now, because they 'trying' to settle it, as are the other countries. China wouldn't have anything to do with it. France, no, UK, no, Russia, I doubt it, they have no reason.
IF you can tell me if they are straightly and why, then its different, and I might believe you.

But anyway.
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culture must evolve their own system, as Europe and the various ex-Euro-colonies have done.

Well, I think they've been trying for a long time. It hasn't got anywhere because they are blinded by their revenge.

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we've already interfered by creating Israel in the first place, but still, they should tailor their own solution in their own time

Yeh, well I don't think thats very good. You can't just let them be. I know its a touchy situation, but there has to be an agreed initiative to it. And really the UN should be seriously discussing it....
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« Reply #22 on: Dec 4th, 2003, 02:35am »

Theres so much historical hostility between Israel and Palestine.

really there has to be a way of discarding the revenge and aiming with one mind toward a peaceful middle East.
It was the superpwers and the world who had stuffed up the place in the beginning. And obviously the two nations have no way of getting out of it together.
It seems as if there is no solution, because there hasn't been enough courage of late and a really great plan to transform this conflict.

Both want to be recognised as a nation, because they have both been in such patriotic and naitonal termoil over that last many decades.
They both have their demands, and there is a way to satisfy both in a unified and Brilliant way.
A plan that will not only ease the hatred but also grow bonds of peace and activity.
something for not just these two nations, but essentially the whole world to work on.

Ideas for the whole land and hatred conflicts in the two nations...?
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« Reply #23 on: Dec 7th, 2003, 9:25pm »

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IF you can tell me if they are straightly and why, then its different, and I might believe you.


Well if I had access to any sort of information those nations wanted to keep secret, I would be in MI6 or the CIA. I can't prove anything, but then you can't prove they're not funding them, either. And their limited and frequently disrupted industries simply cannot be manufacturing the quantity of weapons they are using, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, has to be funding them from the outside. I don't see why you couldn't imagine out own nations funding them - it's not like they haven't done anything dishonest or immoral before.
The US has plenty of reason to fund Israeli forces. They are biased towards them simply because of the large number of influencial Jewish peoples living in their nation. It's a well known fact, at least, I thought it was. The UK too has some influencial Jewish businessmen who could perhaps put pressure on the government, or simply fund the Israeli's directly. But someone, somewhere, is giving them weapons and money.
And ex-USSR nations have plenty of reasons to fund either faction - they have a weapons surplus from the Cold War (i.e. weapons stashes and missile silos hidden all over the place) and a heavily-damaged economy. Logical answer - sell the weapons.

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Well, I think they've been trying for a long time. It hasn't got anywhere because they are blinded by their revenge.


It's taken pretty much two millenia for Europe to come to peace terms - and it only really happened after the fall of the Berlin wall. Even now there are petty squabbles etc (i.e. Italian prime minister calling Germans Nazis a while back) that disrupt the peace. No-one stepped in to help the Western world reach peace. No-one should step in to help the Middle-Eastern world reach peace.
Likewise, no-one should be going in and removing dictators because they feel they have a moral obligation (or, translated from Bush speak, there is lots of oil there). Again, the Western world hasn't always been a democracy, though people hate to think about it. Again, it was only about a decade ago that Russia no longer had a dictator. And only just over half a century ago that Germany had one of the most ruthless dictators of all time. You never know, by leaving the people of the Middle East to eventually solve their own problems - which they will do - they may come up with a better democratic system - or a better alternative to democracy. And before anyone suggests that the Western people didn't take it into their own hands to overthrow their undemocratic leaders, first look at the history behind Cromwell, the American War of Independance, the French Revolution... the only exceptions I can think of come from WW1 and WW2, even then it was the Western world doing it.
The people of the Middle East have access to models of our democracies. They have knowledge of how to make peace treaties and negotiate. They have brains to think of their own ways of doing things. What's the saying? 'Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime'. They have knowledge of everything they need to make the Middle-East into a hot version of Europe. It's entirely up to them to do so, or create their own way. No amount of Western interference will motivate them otherwise. Nor will any Western morals or ideals be of much use to a region of such drastically different culture, religion and situation. There will be bloodshed and violence, but there is anyway. Leave them be.
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« Reply #24 on: Dec 10th, 2003, 01:21am »

You say you disagre that the western world has gone into the MIddle East, and tried to 'make peace' by taking out dictators, and we both know that it isn't working.
But then you say that the western world is at peace. The western world isn't at peace, if it isn't trying to make genuine peace with others. If it doesn't believe in equality around the world, then it can't be at peace.
After all, all wars reflect of course the participants attitudes.

So I don't think we can say that the Western world is at peace. I don't think it is right to issolate areas like that, instead viewing the world as a whole. Because this is leaning toward unilateralism, which you don't support(or so I'm guessing).

Rather we should genuinely helping the middle East instead together. Unilateral invasion obviously isn't working at all.
The theory of letting people be, is wrong because we can achieve so much more toegether. Letting people do what they want isn't working in our world, and eventually we have to realise that.
At the moment, its hard to relaise this because we can't see any way of doing this effectively. How the heck do we solve the middle-east conflict with the UN?! We don't know, so we say that that theory doesn't work, but I think it can, if we actually think about it and co-operate.
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« Reply #25 on: Dec 12th, 2003, 7:21pm »

Yes the West is far from perfect, but we're not at war with each other anymore, and probably never will be thanks to organisations such as NATO and the EU. And as we are so flawed we still use violence outside the boundaries of Western countries, do you think it's right for us to be using our flawed political and moral systems to replace other people's flawed political and moral systems? No.
Imagine the US had been liberated by an outside power, not the colonists themselves. I don't mean the colonists were helped - they were anyway - but the job was done for them. National pride would be nowhere near what it is now. It may not even be a superpower now because no-one would have held their nation in such high regard. They would have just looked back on their ancestors as weaklings who needed someone else to come in and do things for them. Their democracy would have been set up by someone else. The US would be a present to its people, not something they worked for.
The same applies for Iraq. People will look back in a hundred years with what could only be considered shame that they couldn't do it themselves.

Which they could have done, had they not been relying on the US to do it for them. People do not tolerate oppression for long, evidence of that can be seen in most Western countries' histories. The fact that the Middle-Eastern people seem to be more patient with their dictators does not mean they will never rise up and take control for themselves, nor that they would be unable. Nor does it mean they need our help. This is something I think they have to do for themselves; the long-term causes of us doing it for them I think could be devastating to what they are capable of. If you don't understand what I'm trying to convey now, I'm afraid I'll have to give up; there's no clearer way I can think of saying it.
The Buddhist way is nice, for sure, but for the right now it is not realistic. Too much distrust exists, and you can't simply say 'well if they wanted to, they could forget about it and get along' - you know deep down that most of the world doesn't work that way. You also know deep down that no matter what people are capable of doing, violence will still exist every where for a long time to come. Until either human mentality evolves to the point where violence no longer exists in their vocabulary, or Buddhists or enlightened people somehow get into power in every state on the planet, violence will continue to be a viable option for most people. You know this to be true, and yes it is possible that everyone could suddenly discover your way, but not likely.
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« Reply #26 on: Dec 16th, 2003, 12:53am »

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Yes the West is far from perfect, but we're not at war with each other anymore, and probably never will be thanks to organisations such as NATO and the EU.

Not at war doesn't mean peace.
I agree with you with concern to the invasion, I always have.
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If you don't understand what I'm trying to convey now, I'm afraid I'll have to give up; there's no clearer way I can think of saying it.

No, I understand what you're saying. And its a very debatable topic. There is no denying that the true way for a country to develop is through the strength of its own people.
The other thing is, what if many are loyal to someone who is killing many of not only others, but his own people.
What do you do? Perhaps the people will eventually revolt. But can we sit back while this dictator uses his people to kill others for his own gain.

I agree that the dictatorship system should be taken out. Can a dictator be talked into doing something for the benefit of his people, or will he cling to greed. What is likely is that he will cling to his greed.

The dictator must be exposed. But I don't think the Iraqi people were going to listen to the US and what would seem like propaganda. The world really needed to work together to think of a plan to topple the false idolisation of this sinister, sadistic and also cowardly character.

The problem with the US alone trying this, is that they won't listen. Not suprisingly the Iraqi people hate the US for what they have done, and they thus cling to this hatred with Sadam Hussein. The US show no respect for Iraq and its people. They are, like Hussein animalistic in their approach to world conflicts.

If somehow the Iraqi people feel that they have no need for this hatred, and that the world will help them. Thats Hussein is a cowardly idiot, then they will loose confidence in this tyranical dictator and with both pressure from its people and the rest of the world, they can drive Hussein out and quell his followers.

The world can them help the Iraqi people establish their own way of life, through a lot of talks. Of course how exactly the Iraqi people can change their perception is, at this time not in my grasp. However I know that non-violence is aimed at the exposure of the evil of the opressors. (There are many types of non-violence)

It is of course up to the Iraqi people to defeat the minority of the 'elites'. The people are the bulk and have the greates influence on their country.

But lets look at the situation now. What can be done now? Personally I don't think the Americans are establishing this country for their own rule and equality. They are going to be in Iraq for their own base, and for their own use. They don't attempt to unite Iraq, they haven't made any efforts for talks among the people.
Actually what I'd like to see is Sadam Hussein saying something to his people about how to use the situation for the peoples advantage. To truly grow Iraq and prosper. Also advise America on how to establish this nation.
Many people are looking towards him still, because of the appaling condition of Iraq.
If Sadam has the wisdom and the decency to help his people after his pathetic defeat he could be very good.
It is his nature to pray on those that are weaker than him, but when someone 'stronger' comes he is immediately defeated and hopefully will change.
This may seem stupid to contemplate, but he can infact help his people still.

Quote:
The Buddhist way is nice, for sure, but for the right now it is not realistic

This isn't what I'm saying. I believe in non-violence, humanity. Gandhi, King, all the other great humanitarians. I believe in the ideals for improving the life of all people without using violence and hatred.
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« Reply #27 on: Dec 17th, 2003, 5:34pm »

Well I don't know whether or not you wrote that post before or after this weeks news, but I don't think Saddam will be of much help to anyone anymore, not after his easy capture. Anyone who thinks anything of him now is beyond help, lol.

Quote:
The problem with the US alone trying this, is that they won't listen.


I don't think it's their intention. What I've noticed in US history is that they always have something to fear, something to hate, something to fight. And they do so to such an extent that this fear and hatred is all they can see, and anyone who can't see it is either one of the hated, or stupid. Whether it be Native Americans, British troops, Communism or terrorism, they always seem to 'need' an enemy, as if their nation will fall apart and die. Even during their isolationist stage, they seemed to view the rest of the world as 'corrupt' or 'dirty' or something. With this fear, there is always an underlying passion for extreme capitalism. And, as though on some sort of holy quest, the US decides the only way is total submission, or war. This is where the lack of compromise or indeed listening seems to stem from.

Quote:
Personally I don't think the Americans are establishing this country for their own rule and equality.


They are interested in installing a puppet government, and establishing a political system with laws that are very favourable to the US. It's called Informal Empire too, just as invading a country that won't allow you unrestricted access with your econmy is. In this sense, they can continue to rule themselves so long as they do as the US government wishes. In a few years time, a typical street scene of Iraq will not be complete without a McDonalds or two, Starbucks, and of course a US-owned oil facility on the horizon.


And in one last-ditch effort to have you understand, look back at European history. Find one instance of democracy being established at the dawn of time, and following through without change till present day. You won't find one. It's an aspect of history the west seem to have forgotten, taken for granted or just don't want to admit. It's only been fifty years since Germany still had a dictator. Thirty years before that, they'd never seen a democracy. I believe that a state in America only recently gave equal rights to women for God sake. The illusion that the Middle East will either be influenced by the west or have dictatorships forever is greatly exaggerated, and will be detrimental to their national pride and indeed development in the future.
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« Reply #28 on: Dec 18th, 2003, 01:04am »

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I don't think it's their intention...

No sorry, I meant that the Iraqi people won't want to co-operate with the US
Quote:
They are interested in installing a puppet government, and establishing a political system with laws that are very favourable to the US.

Its probable. Thats is why the world shouldn't allow unilateralism becase eventhough we think we are a developed people(the US especially) and that we are beyond greed. Evidentally we are not.
Unilateralism scr*ws up the world.
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« Reply #29 on: Dec 22nd, 2003, 10:28pm »

on Dec 17th, 2003, 5:34pm, Thoth wrote:
Whether it be Native Americans, British troops, Communism or terrorism, they always seem to 'need' an enemy, as if their nation will fall apart and die.


Too true. You see evidence of this in film and television as well. During the cold war, the bad guys were always Russian. Now we see quite a few Arabs as super-villans. The American government is always telling people to be cautious of a particular group. I think that this may contribute in part to the gun problem. The government is fuelling it with a "public enemy no. 1 is..." attitude. The Americans are united by fear.
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