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Katerina
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #15 on: Mar 4th, 2004, 04:22am »

I think there are other ways of protecting the vulnerable without lying. There are many ways of indirectly answering a question, for instance - changing the subject: "I'm not really sure, why don't you get some sleep", kind of thing. "Are you happy with your haircut?"

They say all's fair in love and war, of course and I suppose if one is being interrogated by someone whose reality allows them to be abominably cruel perhaps a lie would save some lives.

But perhaps more to the point, the fact that you suggest that it's OK to lie so long as you're doing it for "noble" reasons suggests the acceptance of a moral code that is bound to incorporate an understanding of good vs evil.

If I lie to you because I've stolen something of yours and I don't want to give it back: evil

If that thing I've stolen was harmful to you (enough heroin to overdose on and a syringe with blood from an aids carrier): good

If I know you are about to be tortured by a nazi dental practitioner for information that could lead to the end of civilization as we know it: evil

We're still acknowledging that there is a differentiation to be made between good and evil. Which one we're talking about is recognisable largely by intent. This fits in nicely with the Swedenborg perspective, but Thoth is coming from the Atheistic perspective which might deny that it is "good" to prevent the end of civilization as we know it, merely a personal choice.

As a Christian, I would say any act that is performed with the intent of loving another as oneself is "good", whereas acts that are committed out of hate are "evil".
« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2004, 02:58am by Katerina » User IP Logged

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torrich
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #16 on: Mar 7th, 2004, 10:18pm »

I don't use heroin!!
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #17 on: Mar 8th, 2004, 03:12am »

Quote:
I just find it ironic that the civilisation you pride on being moral, the civilisation that abhores killing, has killed everyone who doesn't think the same way.

Well, heh, I can't really find it ironic, but I see what you mean. I pride in humanity, not necissarily every aspect of human civilisation. I can understand the basis for violence and killing which is a innate within in us all, and so then must be of compassion. That potential and equality in humanity what I pride in.

A bit of buddhist trivia tongue:
I don't view Good and Evil as seperate to each other. Good and Evil cannot be diminished in any person or thing, and thus must be innate within everyone state of living and phenomena.
A person of great 'good' still has the innate potentiallity for 'Evil'. I think its wrong to just act 'good', polite or 'ethical, from what you've been taught since birth and just blindly deny evil. Rather you should understand the nature of evil and good, and so try to strengthen your compassion in every walk of life. Being good can be very different to being wise. So I don't view evil as an isolated thing, and also that of good, they are broad words for life conditions that are the interwoven complexities of human life.
Yet another way of looking at is that, evil is just a word we give to our various human suffering, which supress our potential and thus from our own weakness spiral us lower and lower into pathos, unless we awake to the poteniality of wise living. We ourselves are the embodiment of that the flow of good and evil, and the manifestation of that.

So thats a buddhist view.

As for lying.....
Everything depends
But generally lying is a denyal of compassion, and also a 'symptom' of human suffering. You could be lying for your own gain, or just because you don't like the other person. This psychology is shallow and I suppose some people can call it 'evil'.

If you're 'protecting' someone from harshness and heart-break, then that is most likely the product of someone else's shallowness. So ideally, one should eventually come to understand the reality of the situation, but reality can be harsh!
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Katerina
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #18 on: Mar 9th, 2004, 01:40am »

Good for you Torrich. But, er... shocked You did get my point, didn't you? rolleyes
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #19 on: Mar 12th, 2004, 02:13am »

Yeah, I was only kidding. I get your point, and, to some extent, I agree.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #20 on: Mar 15th, 2004, 4:38pm »

Do you want to elaborate on that?
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #21 on: Mar 18th, 2004, 6:12pm »

Quote:
If Thoth sees killing as being morally OK depending on how you look at it


I'm not saying that. I'm saying killing isn't good or bad -- people just say it's one or the other. It just happens, and some people think it's good, some people think it's bad. I made a point of saying that I've been 'brainwashed' with the same basic morals that you folks have, so to me killing isn't OK. But to the guys who bombed Spain last weekend, killing is OK to get what you want.

And the Christian perspective on the subject confuses me. Some people say that you have free will to do whatever you want. But then some say that if you do good things it is the work of God, and if you do bad things it is the work of Satan. Which is it?
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Katerina
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #22 on: Mar 18th, 2004, 6:58pm »

on Mar 18th, 2004, 6:12pm, Thoth wrote:
so to me killing isn't OK. But to the guys who bombed Spain last weekend, killing is OK to get what you want.


Yes, it's difficult to pin down this argument if one doesn't accept ultimate values. The guys who bombed Spain no doubt think killing is terrible if it happens to someone they like, but as you say, we all tend to rationalise our actions away: "It's OK to steal from my boss because he doesn't pay me enough"; "I'd be honest about my taxes if I could afford to be in this unfair society, and if I agreed with what they spent it on".

If one, on the other hand, disciplined oneself to, say, follow the ten commandments of the faith system of their choice, no matter what kind of deprivation they might consequently fear on this earthly plane, they'd make a lot more progress along their personal path and cause a lot less trouble to their fellow humans, flora and fauna. They might, as another consequence, cause others to get found out in their interwoven deceptions, which might cause initial discomfort, but we're all better off when the truth's out in most circumstances.

Quote:
And the Christian perspective on the subject confuses me. Some people say that you have free will to do whatever you want. But then some say that if you do good things it is the work of God, and if you do bad things it is the work of Satan. Which is it?


Well the thinking there is that when you do good, you're promoting the Lord's Kingdom coming, and when you do bad, you're helping Satan throw a spanner in the works.

Swedenborg says we're actually animated (as in our personalities) by unseen spirits (good and bad) who do a lot of that work through us, but perhaps I'll expand on that in the Swedenborg thread.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #23 on: Mar 18th, 2004, 7:11pm »

Do a lot of work through us? Sounds like we're 'puppets' in that case. I don't think I like that idea shocked.
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"I am Thoth who proved the truth of the words of Osiris before his enemies on the day of the weighing of words in the great House of the Prince, who dwelleth in Anu."

Chapter XI, Egyptian Book of the Dead - Papyrus of Ani
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #24 on: Mar 22nd, 2004, 12:01am »

Quote:
I'm saying killing isn't good or bad

I don't like that idea.
You're saying that what the AL Quaida did in Spain was OK.....(that'll surely solve all our problems! angry)
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #25 on: Mar 28th, 2004, 06:50am »

Maybe it will solve all our problems. The Lord works in mysterious ways...
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #26 on: Apr 3rd, 2004, 04:28am »

What a conversation killer! lipsrsealed

No doubt history is a main factor in 'solving our problems'. But I don't think 'killing is okay' ideology is going to help those individuals improve their lives.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #27 on: May 6th, 2004, 7:36pm »

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Morals are not real. They are not tangible. They aren't even built-in to us like our instincts are. The only place they exist is in society, and society has been created by us. Therefore, morals are of our own creation. Some social groups took a different path when creating their morals, be in in the treatment of women, of animals, or the severity of killing a human.
The fact that we've either destroyed or converted most societies that had a reletively low value on human life does not make our morals the 'true' morals, just the dominant ones. If a society based on death and destruction had taken the dominant position and spread across the globe, you wouldn't think twice about killing someone. You'll argue that point, but you wouldn't.
And our society isn't exactly against all forms of death. When it suits our government, they'll go to war, killing hundreds, if not thousands of people. And in many cases the majority of the voting population may support this action. As with the terrorists then. Our countries have no problems killing when they deem it necessary.
You'll note the flexibility of these 'unchanging' morals.

Ergo, good or bad is a matter of opinion, rather than a pre-determined fact.
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Chapter XI, Egyptian Book of the Dead - Papyrus of Ani
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #28 on: May 11th, 2004, 05:58am »

I wouldnt go far as saying they arent completely built in. Societies that have been cut off from the rest of civilization have developed some of the same types of core morals as a lot of "dominant" societies. At any rate, I'm a firm believer in the fact that actions by themselves aren't evil or good, its all based on intent.

On another note thoughm in the real end, all morals are based off whats percieved to be best. Perhaps short term, or long term but thats why we have em. Murder is "wrong" because it removes ideas from society. Incest is "wrong" because it causes conflict in a basic family unit. Of course the flipside can be right for a person too. Murdering someone, in order to fix finanical problems can be deemed "right" by the person doing the murdering... Ah fun stuff.
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xx Re: Good and Evil
« Reply #29 on: May 12th, 2004, 03:06am »

Well, many things are considered unethical because religion says that it is. Religion is what our modern legal system comes out of. Thing were considered to be against god(s) and so the offender was punished. This perception of good and evil comes directly from the original heathen religions. When you consider it, it is somewhat ridiculous that we are now convicting so-called "criminals" on the basis of rules laid down many thousands of years ago by primitave cavemen.
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A journalist (to W.S. Gilbert): How's Bloodygore coming along?
W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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