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Tim
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xx Environmental degredation
« Thread started on: Feb 15th, 2004, 04:50am »

IF you would like to start a topic on more specific elements of this topic, please do
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We are logging trees at a rate of 2 football fields a second, because of the global demand, not only for wood, but also for the land used for mining, crops, live stock grazing etc.
We are killing off endangered species, and changing the way our natural world is supposed to work.

Can you explain why we do this, is there a reason? What can be done?
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #1 on: Feb 17th, 2004, 9:05pm »

We do this because we have become accustomed to a certain standard of life. Even yourself. You know full well that the computer you are using is burning up fossil fuels, and required several other damaging processes in addition to this just to manufacture it. Yet, you continue to use it.
Farmers want fertile/extra grazing land to make as much money as they can. So they expand into the forest.
Although you seem to have succumbed to the myth that it is all bad news. Many different scientific projects are underway to make the need for fossil fuels obsolete, for example. Hydrogen fuel cells for cars are coming along well, they already have a zero-emission Mercedes van as a prototype, though costs and practicality factors halt its immediate production. However, unlike previous attempts to improve cars, this technology is every bit as powerful as petroleum equivilents.
The EU for one makes extremely tight environmental legislation that they enforce zealously. I think that it's every five years that they give companies a new requirement on a multitude of environmental issues.
And I know that there are no immediate effects of the new tree planting schemes in the rainforest, and that they do not nearly cover as much as is being lost, but it shows that something is being done, and those trees will grow, and create more trees. Just as a few years ago nothing at all was being done, in a few years much more will be done than there is now.
And people sometimes confuse me by talking about nature. You yourself have said we are all part of the universe at large. We are nature, just as bears and birds are. Everything we do is natural. Just as it is natural when a fire destroys huge sections of forests, it is natural when we do it.
And endangered species are endangered because they cannot evolve. Survival of the fittest. We are the new predator. If some animals can't adapt to this change, they will die. Just as dinosaurs died. That was natural, wasn't it? The only reason anybody thinks we are 'un-natural' is because of some facade they call morals. I'm sorry to be so blunt, this is what I believe. We have no more moral obligation to protect badgers from ourselves than we do to protect antelope from lions. We just think we do. Yes, it's a shame. Yes, it's a waste. Yes, we should probably do something about it for our own good - we'll end up killing ourselves if we cut down the whole rainforest. Ever play the futuristic strategy PC game Urban Assault? Not a classic, but it had people living in energy domes to protect them from the atmosphere they destroyed. But if that happens, it was, as you put it, 'supposed' to happen. Because we are as much a force of nature as a tornado. We evolved here alongside every other animal, didn't we? We don't consider them to be un-natural, do we? I can't explain it any other way. I just wish people didn't have such a superiority complex, believing that we are somehow above it all. Just because we know what's going on, it doesn't remove us from nature.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #2 on: Feb 18th, 2004, 12:16am »

I see your point.

You have a bazooka(or RPG rocket launcher), and you are going to give 5000 people new jobs in the UK if you kill the last 3 living dinosaurs on Earth. Would you do it?

Do you find this advantage you have over the dinosaur natural to your humanity?
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #3 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 10:15pm »

Um... the dinosaur's main disadvantage is that it's dead, lol... I was using it as an example of so-called 'natural' extinction as a pose to human-caused extinction, which is considered by some to be un-natural, therefore asking... what is the difference? Dinosaurs couldn't adapt to the meteor (or whatever the cause), dodos couldn't adapt to humans - a fellow animal. Although we do kill a lot of animals unnecessarily, foxes kill chickens without eating them and that is considered natural too. Annoying perhaps, lol, but natural.

Lol, how would killing the last dinosaurs on Earth give people jobs? Surely keeping them alive would give people jobs, if only as zookeepers...
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #4 on: Feb 21st, 2004, 11:30pm »

To be quite frank, I don't care too much about the environment, being extremely selfish. By the time everything's really stuffed up, I'll be dead. Unless, of course, some sort of pill for immortality was invented. Then I'd care.

As Groucho Marx once said,"Why should I care about future generations? What have they ever done for me?"
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #5 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:32am »

Groucho Marx was shallow. wink


It was only a hypothetical Thoth.

Foxes were unnaturally introduced here in Australia, they are a pest and kill many native species. What do we do about that? It that the animals fault? Is it now up to the animal to adapt itself because of an external influence still in its own environmental habitat(because of humans).

I do not believe that an animal can adapt faster than our minds can conjure killing machines and techniques. Do you?




Do you believe humans can live beyond cruel animality? (In the psychoogical sense)
« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2004, 01:33am by Tim » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #6 on: Feb 22nd, 2004, 4:36pm »

Quote:
Foxes were unnaturally introduced here in Australia


There it goes again... unnatural... Did something that created itself from nothing for the express purpose of destroying nature do it? No. We did. Animals who evolved here alongside everything else. Sure, we build things. But so do beavers, and we don't call their dams artificial... do we?

[/quote]I do not believe that an animal can adapt faster than our minds can conjure killing machines and techniques. Do you?
[/quote]

Then evolution will remove the animals in question. Some animals can. The ones we use, for example, have managed to completely avoid us killing them (collectively - obviously they're killed individually for food, but not to the brink of extinction). They didn't do it on purpose, but then, plants don't consciously think 'if I grow spikes, that giraffe'll stop eating me'. And cute animals have somehow made themselves harder for anyone to harm simply because they are cute. Which really confuses me. What the hell is cute? Whatever it is, those who are can consider themselves reletively immune from us too.
And some animals have adapted to human infingment. Foxes, and I think badgers, and even some birds now rely on humans throwing out their garbage and hanging seeds in our gardens.
And those who can't adapt, die. It's certainly a new thing, if you're not useful or cute you're at risk, but it's by no means unnatural.

Quote:
Do you believe humans can live beyond cruel animality?


Well I can... I leave them alone if they leave me alone. Short of eating them, which there is nothing wrong with. They do it to each other, for crying out loud.



I think that in this desperate, morally-fuelled ambition some people have to preserve animals, we are actually damaging the planet. By keeping them in zoos and reservations, we're stopping evolution. By keeping them exactly how they are, apparently simply for posterity's sake, we're stopping evolution. Again, it's natural because we ourselves are animals. But is it something we should consider stopping?
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #7 on: Feb 23rd, 2004, 04:18am »

Quote:
I leave them alone if they leave me alone

No I mean can humanity live beyond acting like animals. Do you think that we will always act in an animal way. i.e People will always fear those stronger than them and pick on things weaker. Little reagard for life, little hesitation toward killing and violence...?

IS it possible to live a life that is beyond this mentality?
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #8 on: Feb 23rd, 2004, 10:24pm »

Even if humans as a whole can somehow surpress their animal instincts using mental discipline, I think they'll still be nagging away at them in everything they do. It's pretty much the same as trying to bottle up your emotions. They're always there, whether you acknowledge them or not.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #9 on: Feb 29th, 2004, 9:29pm »

Of course our 'animal emotions' are innate, but you do not think that we can understand ourselves and our environment so much so that our persception is beyond killing, fear, violence?
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #10 on: Mar 1st, 2004, 8:29pm »

Individuals might be able to surpress them, but humanity in general probably won't, at least not for a very long time. You forget, the majority of people do not think as you do. In fact, a lot of people view violence as an acceptable method of getting what you want in every-day life... or even, just for fun.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #11 on: Mar 2nd, 2004, 12:05am »

Heh, I don't foget that. But I realise that if I can do it anyone can. We all have the ability to think 'better' than animals can.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #12 on: Mar 2nd, 2004, 8:28pm »

Not necessarily. Some people are mentally inclined towards violence. Y'know, imbalanced chemicals or too much testosterone and suchlike means some people can't control themselves, at least, they react with violence quicker than most.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #13 on: Mar 4th, 2004, 03:29am »

That's true. I saw a programme on rage recently, and certain people that they interveiwed were not able to remember committing the violent act. It has something to do with grey matter being unbalanced or something.
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W.S.G.: It's not Bloodygore! It's Ruddigore.
Journalist: Oh well, it's the same thing!
W.S.G.: So I suppose if I say I admire your ruddy countenance, it's the same as saying I like your bloody cheek?! Well it isn't. And I don't.
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xx Re: Environmental degredation
« Reply #14 on: Mar 8th, 2004, 03:18am »

Chanting has been proved to change your genes.

This is a case of 'mind over matter', or rather heart(or conviction) over matter.
The boundaries of the human body can be surpassed by immense courage and faith in the 'self'. It has been scientifically proven that people can change their own genes. The meditative practise chi gong(similar in a way to tai chi) has also been proved to change ones genes(like genes that caue cancer)!

So nothing is impossible.

Whether or not such people can find that conviction is up to them, but I don't think impossible!
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